Topic: Anti Implant Brigade


Billy123    -- 03-02-2001 @ 8:54 AM
  Having read the comments of the "Anti Cochlear Implant Brigade" I would just like to ask who do you think you people are, to sit in judgement on those parent who have agonised over the decision of having the implant for their childeren.As a parent of a child who has had the implant I can only comment on how wonderful my child feels since having the implant.My child has come on remarkably since having the implant and can not bear to be without it.I would just like to add that if someone lost a leg would the same people be talking about violating a persons rights by having an artificial limb.
Billy


Les    -- 03-03-2001 @ 8:43 AM
  Hi Billy I am not anti-cochlear, read my post dated 22-12. Before I became involved with the Deaf I would have agreed to have all Deaf children impanted. So if implants are so good why is there not a queue of Deaf people at hospital waiting for an implant. My Deaf friend is an ideal candidate for an implant but she refuses, because she is happy the way God made her. I must agree with the post from Mike dated 23-12 we need more support and info for hearing parents of Deaf children ie deaf culture and sign language also history of the Deaf. Deafness is not like having a limb amputated, Deaf are not "disabled" they just cannot hear, maybe that is splitting hairs but I do not like my friends being labelled as disabled. Before the Milan conferance there was a thriving Deaf community lots of them having good jobs, but the orallists got there own way and tried very hard to destroy sign language. I am not anti-coclear or am I sitting in judgement, I am simply stating my informed opinion through my involvement with the Deaf


Regards Les





This message was edited by Les on 3-3-01 @ 8:59 AM


Kathy    -- 03-03-2001 @ 1:17 PM
  Hi Billy.
I am not anti cochlear but unfortunatly my 20month old son Matthew is profoundly deaf and also has ADHD but he will never be able to have an implant as he has no nerve there. I am pleased that you are happy with your childs implant and I wish you and your family all the best for the future. I am learning to sign to teach Matt and my other children. I think that it is up to each indvidual to decide what is best way to deal with each deaf person as not the same treatment works for everybody.
Kathy.

Best wishes Kathy


Reverie    -- 06-15-2001 @ 11:32 AM
  I would just like to reply and say that lose a limb is very different to deaf. How many people would choose to lose a limb? Many Deaf wish to be Deaf. You implant your child, what does that tell him as he grow up? He is broken, need to be fixed? It's bad to be deaf? He should be ashamed of his deafness? Maybe you think your child feels good now with his implant, but what when he is older and realise he is not hearing? Maybe he can hear some with his CI and maybe even speak well, but still always a deaf person. And he find he is never fit into the hearing world totally because he's deaf. And never in the deaf world because he was teach to feel ashamed of his deafness. I also wonder, does you son sign?
You would not change your baby's race or sex, because that is a part of his identity, who he is, and only his decision to change that ever. Why cut open a beautiful, natural deaf baby just because in you view deaf is bad? Deaf children have every right to grow up as they are born and nurture their Deaf identity. They have a right to learn to sign and learn about their Deaf culture. And every right to know their parent love them who they are as a deaf person, not for what they can make them with surgery and machines in their skull. Frown


sue    -- 06-16-2001 @ 1:39 PM
  I just thought i would add my thoughts, I cannot claim to know much about cochlear implants as I am hearing and have never had to agonise over such a decision, but I do agree with reverie, that it is such a shame that deafness is viewed as something to be ashamed of.

I live in Doreset and recently we had to do a project on the education of deaf children and it appears that as a county we do not have such a thing as a signing policy, dorset does not teach deaf children to sign, when I phoned the hearing impaired unit I was told that there is no need for signing as all deaf children have some hearing and it would isolate the children to learn sign language, i was also told that due to technology all children can have cochlear implants, and all deaf children should learn to talk and lip read. This made me very angry I can tell you, having spent two years learning to use sign language, I could not believe the attitude of the people so called in charge, therse people are making decisions that affect our children, the future of this community, are they trying to wipe out any deaf community...??? If anyone knows what can be done to make these people accept that while deaf people do need to develop some oral skills, they still have a language and an identity of their own... if only they were given a choice...

Please let me know what your feelings are and whtat can be done

Thankyou for reading my ramblings
Sue
xxx


Reverie    -- 06-17-2001 @ 1:29 PM
  Sue -->

"I was told that there is no need for signing as all deaf children have some hearing and it would isolate the children to learn sign language"

*Rolling my eyes* That is the audist attitude for you! I don't understand the logic of that. A Deaf child surround by other Deaf people all who share a language and culture, all understand eachother, with Deaf teachers the child can understand well, and Deaf role models and friends. This is isolation? But a Deaf child in hearing school, who cannot understand any speech and English the teacher uses, can't communicate with classmates, teacher etc, pretending to understand subjects, and now can't even communicate with other Deaf?? That is not isolation?? I must miss something.
The audists have had 100 years of oralism, that is a lot of time to prove their case of oral is better than signing. In 100 years, they prove nothing!! They still do not educate well deaf children. They try speech and lipreading, SEE and other codes, bi-bi, cued speech...and still uneducate deaf children graduate!! Now they say cut your child open, put a machine in their skull, and intense speech therapy. And after all the failure, hearing parents still listen! 100 years is enough to experiment on our deaf children, and is long past time to listen to what the Deaf community trying to say for 100 years.

"i was also told that due to technology all children can have cochlear implants, and all deaf children should learn to talk and lip read."

*Shocked* You were told complete lie! Who is it tell you that? Not all deaf children ok candidate for CI! many deaf children cannot have a CI for various reasons. That is a lie you were told! And that all deaf children should talk and lipread is just as bad!

"are they trying to wipe out any deaf community...???"

*Nodding* They have been for years! The audist wish for everyone to be the same -- hearing! If hearing accept Deaf as a linguistic minority, rather their idea of broken ears, what will do whole audist establismnet?? They will be in trouble if Deaf are not seen broken, don't all buy Hearing aids, CI surgery, speech therapy, special education program...etc. Where will they be?? Billions of dollars lost! And so many jobs - audiologist, otologist, hearing teachers of deaf, social workers. They have a lot to lose to allow the Deaf community to survive and Deaf children to sign.

"If anyone knows what can be done to make these people accept that while deaf people do need to develop some oral skills,"

Why???

Many Deaf do fine without ever use voice or lipread. It is only hearing who need Deaf to have oral skill for easier for them, not Deaf who need them.

*Leaving the room to cool down*



sue    -- 06-22-2001 @ 2:31 PM
  hi reverie,
I did not mean to offend you and I just wanted to make it clear that I do not share htese views!
The person who told me that all deaf have some hearing was from our hearing impaired services, prt of the county council, needless to say I was very angry but didn't feel able to argue against this woman as she was so dominant, I just couldn't believe that they could allow a deaf child to have no communication no language until they go to school and then try to teach them to talk. My daughter is 3 and although she is hearing she also uses sign language when talking to me, (only very basic signs!!) but she is aware that some people talk using their hands, she has also been to a class with me. I don't understand why they are against sign language, like you have rightly said because you are deaf dosn't mean you are broken.

The most worrying thing from this is that my local authority still disagrees with sign langauge and all deaf children learn to talk.
Other authorities teach sign langauge so why not Dorset???? Frown


Reverie    -- 06-22-2001 @ 3:17 PM
  Sue,

I know what you mean, they make me angry too! Sorry if it seemed I was angry at you, I was angry at them.
That is great your daughter signSmile
Hmm...maybe you can write letter to those people at your local authority. Maybe if enough people to say something they will consider teaching sign. Is there are a Deaf school where you live? Is it oral?


sue    -- 06-23-2001 @ 2:24 PM
  Hi Reverie,
There is no deaf school near me, the nearest is about a 2 - 3 hour drive away, and is I think a boarding school.
I think I will try writing to the local authority see what they say.
There has to be something that can be done.
Recently I applied for a job to do support work with a profoundly deaf child at junior school level and was told there would be no need to have any signing skills, but then last week there was an advert for a support worker for a blind child, for this you had to be able to use braille, it seems to me as its 1 rule for some and another for every one else.

Sue




Jane    -- 09-24-2001 @ 9:40 AM
  If there is such a thing as "Deaf community" Then
where are the Blind community? Wheelchair
community? Celebral Palsy community? Well? How
about a "deaf" nation? No?

"I was told that there is no need for signing as
all deaf children have some hearing and it would
isolate the children to learn sign language....
A Deaf child surround by other Deaf people all who
share a language and culture, all understand each
other, with Deaf teachers the child can understand
well, and Deaf role models and friends."

Then why does the public schools make EVERY effort
to work with disabled children? What about
neighborhoods? Friends? Store employees?
Doctors? Church? Teachers? PTA? Families?
co-workers? Is the deaf person supposed to shop
at a "deaf" market just like Japanese at a
Japanese food market? How about "Deafville"?

"I must miss something."

Sadly, you have.

The audists have had 100 years of oralism, that is
a lot of time to prove their case of oral is
better than signing.

They didn't have technology back then but now, it
is moving at an incredible speed and they're
constantly improving the teaching skills. I guess
Deaf community doesn't like change. Look at ASL,
it has been in use in some form for over 200
years...still Phffft! because ASL is extremely
limited and most deaf signers have poor English
skills thanks to ASL method. SO ASL STILL has not
proven its merits.

They try speech and lipreading, SEE and other
codes, bi-bi, cued speech...and still uneducate
deaf children graduate!! Now they say cut your
child open, put a machine in their skull, and
intense speech therapy.

My word! That is the most distorted crapola I've
ever come across. You've used 2% failure rate and
applied that very broadly and that is based on the
success rate BEFORE the advent of better hearing
aids and cochlear implants. So much for deaf oral
students who graduate from high school with honors
and get college scholarships, own businesses,
involved in community services, get the chance to
be a foreign exchange student, go to medical
school, and the list goes on. Machine? Bah! What
about pacemakers? replacement hip joints?

What about successful oral deaf people? Lawyers?
Doctors? Microbiologists? Toxicologists? Teachers?
College professors? Nurses and etc? Oohhh they
don't "count" because they're "acting too
hearing". All of the deaf signers with NO oral
skills that I have met held low paying jobs
because THEY could not communicate and a large
portion of them stayed home and collected SS
checks instead of dealing with the "outside"
world... which is so sad.

"i was also told that due to technology all
children can have cochlear implants, and all deaf
children should learn to talk and lip read.
You were told complete lie! And that all deaf
children should talk and lipread is just as bad!"

Where is the proof? Do you have a degree or the
extensive experiences to make these assessments?
Some deaf people have told me that they chose to
talk and get the implants because that is the only
way they could stand up for themselves AND be able
to be part of the incredible world. They now
wondered why it took them so long to get it and
they LOVE it even though it required tons of work
and frequent trips to the hosptial! One of my
friends wasn't able to get the implant because she
had some residual hearing so she was fitted with
digital hearing aids and she told me that she
NEVER knew the beauty of these sounds before and
was absolutely thrilled about hearing classical
music since she's a ballet dancer.

"are they trying to wipe out any deaf
community...???"
...don't all buy Hearing aids, CI surgery, speech
therapy, special education program...etc. Where
will they be?? And so many jobs - audiologist,
otologist, hearing teachers of deaf, social
workers."

Playing the world's smallest violin. What about
sign language interpretors? Peoples' incomes
connected with the deaf "community"? Sign language
classes? Federal money to support the deaf
programs? Deaf leaders getting paid to "lead" the
deaf community? The number of deaf people is
drastically shrinking thanks to modern medicine
thus prompting the militants to "add more people"
in order to keep up with the pretense of a
community.

"If anyone knows what can be done to make these
people accept that while deaf people do need to
develop some oral skills...

Why???"

Why not? It is NEEDED in today's international
communities. We are NO LONGER isolated from
theworld thanks to internet. The world is changing
at the speed of light. The spoken language is
constantly expanding while ASL lags behind...way
behind.

"Many Deaf do fine without ever use voice or
lipread."

Then why are they holding low paying jobs. Studies
shows that deaf people who develop these critical
oral skills go on to college and get degrees while
those who don't get left in the dust.
Tsk! Tsk! It is all about the needs of DEAF
community, not about the needs of an individual.
Such shame...being so isolated from the outside
world. Deafness is the same as blindness---yet, I
haven't come across a "blind" community. Deaf
community have the audacity to practice "reverse"
racism on other deaf people who want to get
implants or hearing aids and DO w



mikejupp    -- 11-09-2002 @ 2:37 PM
  Right, quite finished your rant now??

Quite a mixture of ideas here, and you seem to have singularly changed the topic of discussion away from what was originally being discussed.

A Cochlear Implant will always be a contentious issue. What you may fail to see is that both Les and myself in our previous postings we were expressing views to create a debate, to try to generate both sides of the argument. We would not sit in judgement on anyone who has to decide what is best for their child whether it be for or against a cochlear implant. An informed decision has to be made. It is not a simple solution. The Deaf Community and I repeat COMMUNITY have strong views regarding the implanting of children. However, I do know of some Deaf parents that have decided, after careful thought that a cochlear implant may be best for their child. This was an informed choice. Sometimes I feel that there is a lack of information passing from the medical establishment to the Deaf Community. No wonder there is suspicion.

You may have noticed previously that I have mentioned the Deaf Community twice. You suggest that there is no such thing as a Deaf Community. Interesting, very interesting. You also indicate that the Deaf are “disabled” in a similar degree to those that have a physically disability – those that are amputees, etc. You mock the Deaf Community with such a comparison. Most of my Deaf friends do not view themselves as “disabled”.

A sense of Community is one of sharing a common bond or identity. True you may argue that those with a disability share a common bond – having a physical disability that binds them together. But this is inherently stronger in the Deaf Community because the common bond and strong identity that binds the Deaf Community is the LANGUAGE that they use. It has nothing to do with “disability” it has everything to do with the language that they use. Your preposterous comment that the Deaf Community does not exist should be treated with derision – Maybe then, there is no such thing as the Chinese Community, Indian Community, Urdu Community…………..the list could go on and on.

You suggest that the Community is made up from introducing Social Workers, Interpreters in fact any people directly involved with the Deaf even suggesting that federal money is being used to give the pretence of a community. Well, to use a term that you, yourself have used “That is the most distorted crapola I have ever come across!!!”

You talk about Sign Language Users being under achievers holding down low paying jobs. I know some that are Professionals and their use of Sign Language has not prevented them achieving their goals. You should compare the Hearing Community and the Deaf community – in both communities there are both under achievers and people in low paid work. It is quite true to say that in BOTH communities you will have children that are not interested in applying themselves to study at school. They leave school with little or no qualifications and go on to do menial or low paid jobs. So your argument that it has to do with the use of Sign Language that prevents Deaf people achieving or finding well-paid employment is a weak one. The point that you miss is the simple fact that societies attitude needs to change in regard to the employment and education of Deaf People. It is merely people and in fact most employers do not have a clue where to begin with a Deaf person.



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